cirrus 22 problems [archive] - pprune forums

cirrus 22 problems [archive] - pprune forums   web pprune.org pprune forums > non-airline forums > private flying > cirrus 22 problems pda view full version : cirrus 22 problems sheilanagig25th november 2004, 13:20on my occassional forays into the world of private (real) flying i have noticed the proliferation of cirrus 22 about. now a chap i know, florida based, is currently trying to offload his asap as are apparently a number of other owners. my guy says that the 'dodgy' stall characteristics and lack of spin recovery are giving the us insurers the jitters and the whole thing is about to blow. he has also mentioned that the us insurers will not payout if the chute is pulled!! i have already asked the only uk 22 owner i know but he wasnt aware of anything nasty in the pipeline. i ask because a friend who is considering purchase of a single asked me for any observations i may have. are there any owners out there wno could give me any info to pass on. any other info also appreciated. phild25th november 2004, 17:22so let's see what you are trying to say: now a chap i know, florida based, is currently trying to offload his asap as are apparently a number of other owners people trying to sell aircraft. hmmm that's strange. on trade-a-plane there are 10 people trying to sell 1998- sr22s. there are also 13 1998- beech 36s for sale, but i would not draw the immediate conclusion that there are a load of unsatisfied beech owners out there, as you seem to be doing with cirrus. 'dodgy' stall characteristics and lack of spin recovery i'm also no expert, but i do know that it's a high-performance single. you wouldn't expect it to handle like a c172. maybe too many pilots have more money than training, and the insurers (rightly) are concerned. the whole thing is about to blow what whole thing? he wasnt aware of anything nasty in the pipeline that's good i ask because a friend ... asked me for any observations i may have if your friend is seeking to spend Ł200k+ on a plane, and is looking to you to pass on some hearsay and rumour, he seems to fall into the 'more money than sense' category. perhaps you should advise him to talk to some owners himself, or to the cirrus owners society, or to the us insurers - maybe even the ones who are about to blow.that's what i would do. sr20flydoc25th november 2004, 20:38you are absolutely right. people in the u.s. are trying to sell there sr22's like dropping hot patatoe's ! :( i know of cirrus owners are buying a new plane each year. and even owners who are going to upgrade to adam's a500 and eclipse jets. :{ even cirrus design promotes this by advertising for the 'tax relief act'. aircraft owners can write-off as much as 30 percent in one year ! this is crazy, and unfair to eu owners. :ouch: ok, and the cirrus srxx has a very brisk stall. that is why i am going to take lessons in parachute rigging..... :p s. fly stimulator25th november 2004, 22:42sheilanagig, it would be worth your friend posing any questions he has on copa (http://www.cirruspilots.org/), the cirrus owners and pilots association. there is a free public forum and a subscription private one, and there is all sorts of other useful information on the site. for what it's worth (and based on only 60-ish cirrus hours) i can't say i find the stall characteristics of either the sr20 or the 22 to be particularly challenging. they can drop a wing (or sometimes not) but as long as you are at least vaguely paying attention it is really not that exciting. if the chap in florida is really trying to 'offload' his aircraft then please do ask him to send me a pm. i can offer a nice microlight in exchange! andrewc26th november 2004, 00:58i've had my sr-22 for three years now, it was one of the first in the uk. its stall characteristics are almost completely benign, the dual profile wing gives aileron control far into the stall for the inattentive. the insurance issue is old news from the us - i have had no problem in the uk, indeed my premiums have been falling. while i have had problems with the aircraft, mostly to do with starting it in cold weather, i would certainly recommend the type to anyone interested in a 4-seat tourer for business or pleasure. i've have been making my aircraft available for differences training to upcoming cirrus pilots in the uk. it simply spoils you for the average aircraft... -- andrew flyin'dutch'26th november 2004, 01:41cirruses are nice aeroplanes. they do have some foibles. dodgy stalls and unexpected spinning is not one of them. those pesky doors are, they are supposedly better on the g2. the guy trying to offload his would have done well to do a bit of reading before putting his name on the dotted line. cirrus was exempt from the spinning requirement for certification as they have the brs. vsukpadman26th november 2004, 08:18as an owner of an sr22g2 who talks a lot to other owners, and reads pretty much every thread on copa , this is all news to me ! the aircraft has no more foibles than any other i have flown, in fact i would say it has less! sounds like scaremongering to me , probably put about by other manufacturers trying to halt the growth of cirrus... i will post this link in copa , and we will see what all these us owners apparently rushing to sell have to say :-) all the best bill padley stiknruda26th november 2004, 08:24andrew c/vsukpadman, wasn't perchance either of you that arrived back (three up) at an angry ex wwii field late yesterday afternoon and had to wait until i'd finished fuelling before you could get to the pump? stik vsukpadman26th november 2004, 08:26stik sadly not guilty ..i had to actually do some work yesterday...really gets in the way of flying :-) :-);) valenii26th november 2004, 08:50stik you said - wasn't perchance either of you that arrived back (three up) at an angry ex wwii field late yesterday afternoon and had to wait until i'd finished fuelling before you could get to the pump? could have been one of our three aircraft, where was it??? was it a n147<xx> registration? my opinion on this thread is that is definately sour grapes put out by other manufacturers and stuff. stall is conventional. spin recovery is unconventional (but guarenteed!) - so whats the problem?? bill - i would not drag copa down to the level of such rubbish scaremongering.... like an email virus, silly comments like this one should just be ignored. the cirrus is simply the best designed ga plane available. no discussion! stiknruda26th november 2004, 10:20believe that the aircraft is locally owned - poss norwich? very pretty it was too, on the tarmac at seething (angry wwii 'drome). although i heard the callsign on the radio a couple of times, i couldn't recall it, it may have been nxxx charlie delta. valenii - i fear that you are biased, everyone knows that curtis pitts designed the best ga aircraft, ever! it really does spoil you for other aircraft and the spinning characteristics, that don't need a brs are fun! stik sheilanagig26th november 2004, 12:56guys just chill a little ok.....just asking! phil - "trade a plane" is that a uk publication, how do i get a copy? by the "whole thing" i mean that the current reasonable insurance quotes for reasonably competent ga pilots may soon become a thing of the past on the 22, - but not on the 20. re my pal he didnt ask me to pass on any "hearsay or rumour", he and i are simply looking for additional info to that which we already posess from the states, including the insurers. i kinda thought that was what prune was designed for! fly stim - thanks i will try copa. fly dutch - my original post is mostly concerning the 'chute' ,or precisly that the anticipation is that us insurers will not 'pay out' if god forbid the thing was deployed. of course if you are in a position to make a claim after its deployment. as i understand it cannot be successfully deployed below 2,000ft and even if it works you will hit the ground at a fair rate of vertical descent. dont jump at me, just what im told. re the stall, to be honest i havent tried it in any configuration but i ws told that whereas it is ok(ish) straight n level that the problems arise in landing configuration. anyways, thanks for the replies i will do as suggested and ask on copa. whipping boy's satco26th november 2004, 13:14if anybody owns one, thinks it is rubbish and is considering a bargin-basement sale to get it off their hands, please let me know ;) phild26th november 2004, 13:16trade-a-plane (http://trade-a-plane.com) is , afaik, the benchmark us publication for buying & selling. it needs a subscription to read the ads. aso (http://www.aso.com) has almost as many planes and is free to browse daviddc26th november 2004, 17:18as a sr22 owner, i am happy to share the following facts and opionions with anyone who may be considering the sr22: - the sr22 is fast, smooth and comfortable for 4 adults (650 lbs approx). - it handles beautifully in cruise and has has amazing slow flight characteristics due to its split wing design. stalls are predictable and uneventful. - 2000 ft/min climb out is easily achieved. - the parachute can be deployed 300ft agl from a glide and 900ft agl from a spin. impact is supposed to destroy the airplane but protect the occupants. cirrus says touch-down is equilivent to a 10ft drop to the ground. however, in all 5 parachute depoymnets to date, the plane was not destroyed, in fact, some experienced only minor damage, and the passengers all walked away uninjured. in my opinion, the combination of comfort, performance, handling, the parachute, and a stunning avionics package made the cirrus stand out as the clear choice for my purchase decision. a note about american taxes: i read in an earlier post that "americans can deduct up to 30% in the first year." if purchased for personal reasons, there is no deduction. however businesses purchasing an airplane in 2004 can deduct up to 79% of the plane in the first year (conditions apply). 2004 enjoyed extra tax benefits from w's economic incentive plan. i hope this is helpful. david agroth26th november 2004, 18:08my guy says that the 'dodgy' stall characteristics and lack of spin recovery are giving the us insurers the jitters and the whole thing is about to blow. he has also mentioned that the us insurers will not payout if the chute is pulled!!sheilanagig, i am going to be renewing insurance very soon for my sr22, and my agent has given me no indication that renewal will be anything but routine. we talked about trends, as we have in the past, so i am sure he would have informed me if there was something bad coming down the pipeline. also, just for the information, insurance companies will pay if the chute is pulled. regarding stall characteristics, i have 1,000+ hours in sr22's, and i have done a lot of maneuver practice. in my experience, this airplane would be much harder to get into a spin than a cessna 152 or 172. the only airplane that i have flown that is more docile in a stall is the piper cherokee 180. granted, the sr22 can break fast. however, you still have very good aileron authority, and unless you apply and hold the wrong control movements, i don't see how this airplane could get you into trouble. :d andy groth javelin26th november 2004, 20:27stik, my boy, you have missed the point - mr curtis - sir - designed a fine aeroplane. mr christensen refined and developed the original, rudimentary prototype into the fine gentleman's carriage that is - the christen eagle ! pitts, yea, ok, eagle, comfort, space, ease of landing, stunning colourscheme, wonderful canopy, yadda, yadda, yadda :e :e valenii26th november 2004, 23:20stik that would be dave bouchers plane. it is based there i think, he bought it second hand in the us and had it flown over. he is very happy. and yes i am bias sorry. l am in love with my plane, and love is blind. also on the insurance topic i reckon that if the plane is lost but no one is hurt, that must result in a lower claims on insurance than one where people die. stiknruda27th november 2004, 00:45javelin - eagle is a gentleman's aerial conveyance. some of us are still a bit young to want to fall into that sedentary role! valenii - you are right db apparently does own the aeroplane, it is incredibly pretty and seems to land at a stunning rate of knots (no criticism intended or implied). i wonder how the type would cope with 600 metres of grass? stik andrewc27th november 2004, 02:45i've flown into fenland, 594m grass, with my sr-22 on a number of occasions without any problem, landing in 400m, taking off in 350m though the poh is more pessimitic. -- andrew hairyplane27th november 2004, 10:27i bought a robin regent in 01 and thought i'd treat my business to a new aircraft. a good mate of mine has a 22 - very impressive. the choice then fell between a 22 and another regent. no problem for us to afford a 22. 22 - a lot faster, but then 135kts on 180 hp @<hidden> ph is nothing to be sniffed at. lets not dismiss either the fact that we like flying so is an extra 40 kts or so that important? short field performance - i operate from a grass strip. my regent has an unfactored mauw takeoff of 320 metres. whilst the 22 will undoubtedly get in and out of short strips, i feel that its extra weight will require significant margins to be factored in when the ground is muddy ie 6 months of the year. these margins are the difference between what the book says and what your bottie tells you when the end of the strip is getting closer... ground-handling - my dr400, @<hidden> 635 kg plus fuel, is just about as much as i can push on my own on grass. cost - is the 22 really worth two robin regents? faster and more expensive means a lot more cost to operate the thing. so, having thought carefully about a 22 i called mistral - the robin agent ( as far as i'm concerned there is only one..) and as before swamped me with excellent service. what did i get from the cirrus agent here? a brochure, a quote and not one follow up call. cirrus ain't the only choice, as fine an aircraft as it is. i'm buying another regent. hurrah for robin. all the best hp englishal27th november 2004, 14:31i hear lara croft (aka ms. jollie) has bought a sr22;) fullyflapped27th november 2004, 16:50who is the cirrus agent over here ? i can't find any reference on their website ... ff :ok: fly stimulator27th november 2004, 19:56general enterprises b.v. (http://www.general-enterprises.com/) valenii27th november 2004, 20:09hairy plane you have probably made the right decisions, but remember cirrus have an entry level plane at about Ł100k called the srv it really depends on the mission. two weekends ago i dropped two friends to toulouse. i left booker at 0945 and was back 2 mins before they shut at 17:28 having flown 1114 nm in six and a half hours i was completely relaxed and not tired after the two flights. it was done airliner style above the weather and ifr using the autopilot and all the facilities including my de-ice. with 50 knot winds from the north fuel and flight times were hard to predict, but at all times while airborn my engine management systems were predicting accurate fob and eta s for every point in my flight plan. if you need this kind of capability the sr22 really is the best value solution. kitkatpacificuk27th november 2004, 22:25mmmm all very interesting. i am a cirrus standardised instructor based in the uk, but not bias because i fly lots of different types there are always comparisons between aircraft. wouldn't the would be boring if there wasn't. different airplanes suit different pilots for different reasons. the cirrus sr20 and sr22 are fantastic aircraft, and i love instructing and flying in them. but there are other airplanes i love for different reasons. i fly a yak52. i'd take the yak out for 30 mins to throw it around and do some aeros, but i wouldn't use it for a long distance flight. the yak pulls 7g. and boy have i felt it. the cirrus doesn't, but that doesn't make it worse than the yak. spin and stalling the cirrus does have a high stall speed, but doesn't stall any more violently than anything else. look at the pa38 if you want an aircraft with an unpredictable stall characteristic. many a time it'll end up in a spin. too expensive to run? ok 135kts, 180hp, 40litres, that's good for the robin. but defending the cirrus 135kts, 310hp @<hidden> 55%, 10us gals(38litres), sounds the same if you ask me. with the excess power to fly at 180kts there if you need it, sounds pretty versatile. but anyway, i have my pennies worth. aaah that's better. i've flown and instructed on about 25 different types. they all have good things and bad things i love and hate about them, but i haven't heard anything about problems with insurance companies or people desperate to sell them. but hey, we all have our opinions. max roll rate27th november 2004, 22:46the uk rep is caseright ltd based at turweston not general enterprises the phone number is 01280 841111 . just for info the first sr20 is about to come on the g reg look out for g-opss chipper29th november 2004, 15:07i have just purchased a cirrus through the guys at turweston and have to say they were nothing but helpful and gave me all i wanted and when i wanted. i did however have a bit of a fight with the dutch people who appear to have a strange idea of customer service!!!! i think buying a robin because one felt one had bad service is a bit strange and to be honest smacks of sour grapes as one never had enough money to buy what is the best ga aircraft around. happypilot nouseforaname29th november 2004, 16:37aircraft depreciate differently but when they get to about 10yrs old then you really see where your money has gone. if you look at the difference between a cessna 210 and a beech bonanza you will see where the extra money went intially. it's the same with a cirrus. because the entire airframe is limited to 12k hours, as much as they try and make this sound like a huge amount on the webpage (cirrusdesign.com) but to be honest 2nd hand buyers will really look into this. it's really the same as buying a 2nd hand turbine aircraft. you need to pass the parcel before you end up having to overhaul or whatever! io54029th november 2004, 21:36incidentally what is the latest on the fitting of dme and adf to an sr22? i was looking at a new sr22 2 years ago and the dealer wasn't particularly happy about the request, never mind that it is a legal requirement for any practical ifr in europe. with the lcd cockpit displays, they could have remote receivers and integrate the data into the display. hairyplane4th december 2004, 12:57hi chipper, read my post again and you will understand why you are talking a load of b@<hidden>@<hidden> i narrowed the choice between an sr22 and a new robin and posted my own personal reasons. the fact that the cirrus people at turdy obviously have more sr22 customers than they can cope with, hence their decision not to make one follow-up call after their email to me, was of course not the primary reason for sticking to a robin. i am pleased that your wallet is bigger than mine - you obviously know my bank managers really well. hp formationfoto8th december 2004, 18:14have flown the aircraft stik refers to (the dave b machine which is based at norwich and regularly jaunts down to seething for fuel). now i haven't done an extensive test on it but i did have 45 minutes of slow speed handling close up on a cessna 150 in various configurations and positions / angles. sorry to confirm that i didnt scare myself silly or end up in a pile of plastic due to that scary stall!. i have flown plenty worse. lets face it there are plenty of people who will find something to criticise if they don't like the machine in question. i prefer to look for the positives and be aware of things to avoid. the sr22 is a great performing speed beast with an acceptable envelope. if i had the money it would be on my list. somewhere after the bell 47 and the pitts s2 (and yes stik - i know the evidence is that this might be a waste of money for my ham fisted flying but i will learn how to tame it one day!). flight safety8th december 2004, 18:50i started this thread in the tech log forum some time back, regarding the spin characteristics of the cirrus sr20 & 22. cirrus sr20/22 - was this a bad idea? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142994) not too much attention was give to the thread at the time. it has a number of good links to information explaining exactly why the sirrus, and other new aircraft, have the particular spin characteristics that they have. i was looking at this information because i was interested in an sr20 at the time. vbulletin® v3.6.8, copyright ©2000-2007, jelsoft enterprises ltd.

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